Perception of LFS

Jesse Tie-Ten-Quee highos at
Sun Jan 12 04:10:57 PST 2003


On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 09:48:16PM +1100, Greg Schafer wrote:
> "I get so many weird never duplicated reports from linux from scratch people
> that don't happen to anyone else that I treat them with deep suspicion.
> Especially because it sometimes goes away if they instead build the same
> kernel with Debian/Red Hat/.. binutils/gcc"

I think he does have a point, as MSB mentioned.  However... they were not
exactly being fair, either.  Reading through the thread, he blames our
toolchain, but in no way points to anything in particular... but does
imply we are not building it properly.  Confusing at best.

They also mentioned-and discredited us on our lack of GNU or high profile
developers.  All I can say is.. hey, if you happen to know anyone that's
free, send them our way.  We have managed without them, and i've never had
a kernel issue with LFS, so.. whatever.  I don't see that as a fault on
our part, we *are* a small project after all.  But we would all welcome
additional help :)

Dunno.  Sounds like he's just had his fair share of reports from lfs users
that are doing what we have always encouraged-tweaking and modding there
systems to there own requirements-eg no where standard compliant; that
always causes problems, heh.

> Now THAT is the kind of thing that makes my blood curdle. See my earlier
> post about binutils. Maybe we should upgrade to HJ's binutils so that we are
> "keeping up with the Jones's" and we are not treated like black sheep. And
> maybe we should start building the kernel with gcc-2.95.x like the docs
> say.. And maybe we should start... etc, etc, etc...

I can see many reasons for using HJ's binutils.

However, using _this_ is not a reason that should be considered if that
switch is to take place.  There were no technical issues discussed, just
people complaining because we were not using the same version of software
with their patches applied and were causing problems.  *shrugs*

If you can't use the official standard GNU software to build a linux
system.. like wtf.. why are we the ones being blamed? :P

And personally the comments about LFS being on the bleeding edge is not
really true.  Our users may live on the bleeding edge, but the actually
book and all the software we promote is stable and well tested-to the best
of our abilities, given our resources and people.

Many of us still remenber when RH 7.0 was released with GCC "2.96" as the
default compiler.  I happen to remenber how much faith Alan had in RH and
helping promote the good side of things about it.  Looking back over the
years; Redhat, Mandrake, SuSE, Gentoo, etc... are by far the ones that
"live" on the bleeding-edge _officially_.

I wont get started on the gcc3 thing Greg, as you honestly do not want to
go there-trust me ;)

> Does anyone care about these sorts of issues?

I care that the technical issues get resolved.  I could care less if the
developers are slapping us from afar, without giving us a hand.  The only
thing gained by reading a thread like that, is loss of respect for a
developer i've always held high.  Unless he wants to elaborate a little
futher on some of the causes of our toolchain problems (thou he expressed
not w/o some $$$ :) or get us talking to some developers that could help
fix our problems, or at the very least point us in the right direction...


Either way, I still highly respect Alan Cox and i'm sure he has his
reasons for his comments.  But without facts to back it up, all we have
now is a mystery.  Not really an issue i'm going to loose sleep over ;)

(hah, not like it matters when it's 7AM and I haven't hit the sack yet!)

> In a "perfect world", LFS would be an enterprise employing real life paid
> developers, and maybe then we might be taken seriously? FFS..

Keep dreaming.  It's hard enough trying to get hardware donations :) 

Gerard doesn't seem to be doing all that bad in this regard though, so
there is one big plus to this.  No matter what the lkml guys have to say,
Gerard *is* highly respected outside of our little lfs community.

Anyways...  /me thinks Greg is trying to find bait to use for the HJ's
binutils switch, Heh Heh..

Jesse Tie-Ten-Quee  ( highos at linuxfromscratch dot org )
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