LFS Package GPG Signature
jeroen at linuxfromscratch.org
Mon Jun 7 15:59:18 PDT 2004
Roel Neefs said the following on 07-06-2004 21:41:
> On Monday 07 June 2004 21:03, Jeroen Coumans wrote:
>>Roel Neefs said the following on 07-06-2004 20:11:
>>>LFS is beginning to become a more and more linux newbie oriented
>>>book, and i don't like that change, it is a hell for support.
>>Where has it become more newbie oriented? If anything, the move to
> It's a change i noticed the last year (maybe it's only me), inclusion of
> small things like the resolv.conf, the addition of a $LFS/sources, the
> threads about MAKEDEV/make_devices and explaining on how to change them
> for your needs, ...
> All because people that imho in the first place shouldn't lfs were
> complaining about the lack of them/couldn't do it themselves. But are
> quite normal for a mediocre to advanced linux user which is the target
> audience of the book.
It's very hard to talk about "mediocre to advanced linux user" because
we seem to have different understanding about them. We *did* establish
some tasks which such a user has to be able to perform, such as
downloading and extracting a tarball and installation of the kernel. The
latter has now become a *formal* requirement.
>>2.6/NPTL raises the bar, especially by requiring the user to built a
>>2.6 kernel before LFS actually begins.
> That would indeed have raised the bar again, but then some people here
> on the list wanted detailed instructions on how to do it...
No, just *pointers* to *external* documentation, just as I state in the
next paragraph... The point is that there is *nothing* lost by including
those pointers, since we still provide only the minimal instructions
necessary for a user to complete the book. If anything, it makes the
book only more useful, and not just to the bleeding-edgers who installed
the 2.5.x kernel and used NPTL when it was still unstable in Redhat, but
also to the LFS user who installs the software available in the latest
>>Providing references to
>>*external* documentation is not a signal of the book becoming more
>>newbie-friendly, if anything, it stresses the scope and boundaries of
>>the book and sets the required knowledge to build an LFS system. But
> I have nothing against pointing to existing documentation, if anything i
> encourage that, but you were talking here about adding the meaning of
> gpg --verify and things like that to the book.
Then you have misunderstood me. I said:
"A one-liner which states the command to run (with reference to --help
or the Fine Manual) and a pointer to a general document would be very
much appreciated by this GPG/PKI/security newbie, and I suspect to a
significant number of LFS-ers too, as well as a large number of our
target audience. "
I don't mean to duplicate existing docs, I just want to point to them.
>>I understand how this can be seen as a sign that LFS becomes more
>>newbie oriented. Education seems to be a less important goal then the
>>building of a custom system, at least, that seems to be the current
> No it isn't, not to me at least. But you can't please every linux user,
> if you really are going to lower the bar for new linux users, then the
> advanced users will go away cause it becomes all to easy, i always
> thought of lfs to be a challenge to do the first time.
I don't intend to lower the bar, I just intend to make the book more
accessible and valuable by providing more pointers to external docs.
That doesn't conflict with any goals stated for LFS so far, and is only
in line with the goal of education.
>>BTW is support really increasing, or is that just an assumption? The
>>support lists seem to be very quiet lately, but I can't speak for
> It is increasing, not on the lists but on IRC, a lot of people are
> helped their daily with their lfsing, not just the 3-4 support mails on
> the list :)
I wonder how this comes? Is it because users get better/faster answers
on IRC, or because the lists have become more hostile?
But anyway, we should probably change the subject or drop this thread
here. I understand your position, and rest assured that I don't want to
dumb the book down. I only want to expand (and perfect) the current
explanations so the book will be more "book-like" and less "instruction
manual-like". This means extensive instructions, discussion of various
options (but sticking to a sane default) and providing pointers to
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